Justin: 0:00

What makes you say you, but then you had to let me know. Now I'm not talking to you. Justin, exactly, I mean, it's clear we're talking to our audience.

Rhett: 0:07

It's the same thing.

Justin: 0:08

But you just had to clear that up with me, yeah, but then, as I was clearing up what you said, I then had to jump in and say now I know, you know this, I cleared up, the clear up of your clear up.

Mark Clement: 0:18

I think maybe that's a great question. It's because you and I are in the room and we know people are listening, but I feel like it's our conversation. So when I'm saying you, it could come across as if I'm saying you know.

Justin: 0:33

Justin, when you communicate, man and I don't mean it that way You're almost being protective of my feelings. Yeah, Because inside there might be something you're going through that would.

Mark Clement: 0:39

Way to turn this on me. I love this. Bring it on. Let's talk about this.

Justin: 0:42

Let's go deep with this. Me. I love this. Bring it on, let's talk about this. You know what I mean.

Mark Clement: 0:48

Yes, like exactly, I just asked if you know what I mean because I need to know that you're picking up on what I'm saying. I get what you're throwing down because I understand it.

Mark Clement: 0:53

We're tracking with each other. You're communicating it. Well, I got you. What is going on Armchair Authentic Podcast. Friends man, thank you so much for taking the time today to dial in and download another episode. Here we are having real conversations about real life, stewarding our stories in a way that serve you, and we're really excited about today's conversation. Now, before we get into it always got to take a moment and say thank you to every single one of you who have taken the time to comment and engage on social media with us. In fact, if you're new here today, welcome friends, it's so great to have you. Could you do us a huge favor? When you have a moment, go to Facebook, go to Instagram, look us up at Armchair Authentic. That's at Armchair Authentic. Now, if you're over on X, you can find us there too, at Armchair Off Pod. That's Armchair Off a. U T H P O D. Want to encourage you. If you're enjoying today's episode, or any episodes for that matter, could you continue to do?

Rhett: 2:13

us a huge favor.

Mark Clement: 2:14

Would you copy the link from whatever podcast platform you're using and would you text it to a friend? Would you email it to a friend? Would you like? Hey, air drop that puppy over to a friend. Whatever you do, hey, airdrop that puppy over to a friend. Whatever you do, could you just share that with somebody? Man, I'm telling you that means so much to us. Thank you. All right, friends, the moment we hope you've been waiting for, we're diving into our conversation. You guys ready.

Justin: 2:44

Let's go, isn't?

Rhett: 2:49

she lovely.

Justin: 2:51

I can't find the rhythm.

Rhett: 2:57

Isn't she wonderful?

Justin: 2:59

No, that's not it what? There we go, hey, isn't she?

Mark Clement: 3:06

wonderful. I don't even know why I'm singing that. Okay, I got a thought for you. I wrote this down. Oh gosh, that's crazy. Please remember or don't forget. Which one would you rather say and rather hear Please remember, hey, church, family, hey guys, I got an event coming up, don't forget. Or hey, please remember, hey church family.

Justin: 3:25

Hey guys, I got an event coming up, don't forget. Or, hey, please remember. I don't even know if I'd use any of those Really, hey, as a reminder.

Mark Clement: 3:31

Because you're basically saying please remember, there's a positive tone to please remember. It's like I'm asking you to do something in a positive way. Please remember, rather than hey, don't forget, because you're an idiot, because I know you're forgetful and so I don't know my pet peeve and I've grown into this is like please stop telling me to don't forget, as if I'm going to forget. Speak to me in a way that said hey, I'm not saying you're going to forget.

Rhett: 3:57

But that's why I say as a reminder, as a reminder, as a reminder what's coming up?

Justin: 4:01

Now I'm not having to beg, but I'm also not like don't forget telling you what to do.

Mark Clement: 4:07

Yeah, well, I and I don't necessarily say it from not telling me what to do, but just kind of like an idea of no. It's kind of like does that make sense? Does anybody else have a pet peeve with that? Listen to that comment. Does that make sense? Oh'm 47 years old on this planet and I can't believe that. What you said like ah, I just didn't get it.

Justin: 4:29

No, then there's a fancy way to say it. Hey, are you?

Mark Clement: 4:31

tracking with me. Yeah, that's a much better my hope, because what you're asking by saying those comments is like I really I probably said that when I was teaching yesterday.

Justin: 4:41

Does that make sense? I mean, I threw a lot at him.

Mark Clement: 4:43

My hope is that I'm doing a good job communicating this and we're connecting. That's really what you're saying. I'm not saying you, but like I've really had to think about that and I'm like does that make sense? Like you, people can say that so many ways and I'm like, god, I wish people would stop saying that it's not, that it doesn't make sense. Just ask what you're really asking. Or or make the statement hey guys, as we're going on this, I hope you're tracking with me. If you have any questions, just let me know, yeah. Or I hope I'm communicating this in a way that that you know you're, that we're all understanding this and going on the same journey together. Yeah, there are so many different ways you could say it.

Justin: 5:19

I've thought about all that. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you, I will Cause I'll even write a text and if it, if it feels demeaning, I'll delete it. I'm like I don't, like they don't forget, it's a big one. It's like, yeah, right, there's a better way to say this.

Mark Clement: 5:40

How do I say this? I don't know why. I think if we do a good job kind of, you know, being self-aware in how we communicate it helps us become better leaders. Yeah, and I just don't want to demean people's intelligence by. Does that make sense? Well, I don't know, man, you told me that you're going to go to this restaurant and buy this and then you're going to go do this. Man, that was so confusing man, that was so confusing.

Justin: 6:06

I don't know why you're thinking about your performance too much when you're asking some of that question or those questions, instead of really think it can sound like you're serving someone else. But it's kind of a self-serving comment, it's a self-serving insecure comment at its root and I don't think people really think that they're doing that and they're not.

Mark Clement: 6:21

I don't think people's heart like I'm trying to demean you and your intelligence, as if you can't understand what I'm saying and that I need to talk at your lower level. I don't think people mean that. I think it's one of those throwaway things that people have just picked up now and are saying with everything.

Justin: 6:36

Does that make sense?

Mark Clement: 6:37

That makes sense. That makes sense. That makes sense. That makes sense. I don't know, I think it's a habit. Yeah, it's a habit we can fall into.

Justin: 6:43

Yeah, and it's balanced. I mean, I'm not expecting people to stop saying that, I'm not trying to say that we're right, I'm not expecting ever I'm kidding.

Rhett: 6:53

I don't know if it's like we're right or not.

Justin: 6:54

No, but what you've brought up is a chance. Now it's like my mindard, great theologian we've mentioned him before has some amazing quotes. One thing that I've heard stories about him and I love it me and my wife love it. There's just something refreshing about it and it will almost sound different from maybe what you're used to being around, and I heard someone once say that he just never really asked after he talked. He never really asked the person who was over it like, hey, how did I do? Was that, was that? Was that kind of what you're looking for, and that sounds like that's a great thing to do. We're in a culture of to ask, always ask for feedback. It all sounds good, but there are certain times you're asking not really for feedback. You need a little bit of encouragement and no one's giving it to you in the moment. So you're really trying to. You're fishing for compliment.

Rhett: 7:57

It's really good.

Justin: 7:58

And so, but to almost live with the discomfort of I don't know how I did, but I'm actually not going to ask. Now. There's a way maybe to say once again, I'm just giving out thoughts here, yeah, no, it's good. Maybe there's a way to say, hey, if you have any feedback, I'm always open. But past that I'm just locked in. Knowing I communicated, I know that I came with a mission to communicate, right, and now I'm not thinking as much. Did I nail every word? Or, oh man, I could have said that better. You're not thinking as much performance You're thinking about. Did I presence the moment?

Rhett: 8:33

Yeah.

Mark Clement: 8:36

And it's just a whole different mindset and the people will let you know whether or not you did a good job in that. If they connected with it, they're going to be like hey man, that was really powerful. If they connected with it, they're going to be like hey man, that was really powerful.

Mark Clement: 8:47

Thank you for this, I needed that, and if not, well then there's your answer, or people are going to tell you it doesn't matter if I liked it or not. Did it serve the people well? Did they walk away? Feeling like they grew in an area, can take a step in an area, were encouraged, whatever your goal was for that?

Justin: 9:10

If it served them well, then great, like I don't you know, yeah, it's so good. Yeah, I mean, it's just kind of the you know, we're kind of taking it deep a little bit just with our normal responses and how we, you know, handle things, or we, we, we try to, maybe we're fishing, maybe it's a great question. I think it's all about the heart. Yeah, I don't really know, but it still goes back to like someone could say hey, don't forget, we got this coming up.

Mark Clement: 9:31

Yeah, it was great I think we do things, but it's still a catch all I think we we do things out of habit, because we've heard other people do them and we don't necessarily ask the question why. I'll never forget sixth grade man, I won the award and they were poking fun at me. It was more of a poking fun award and, looking back, the teacher probably shouldn't have done it. But they gave me an award and everybody laughed because this award goes out to the kid who asked the most questions, rhett Barden. Come on down and get me. It wasn't like, hey, man, this is a good thing, it was more like, oh my God, this kid exhausts me. But it's so amazing to me how great leaders and I'm not patting myself on the back, but asking questions really does lead you into a place, if you're asking the right questions, to a place of understanding, to where you're able to move forward and whatever it is you're you're supposed to do Right. And so for me, I always had this love and this passion like.

Mark Clement: 10:26

But why Like? Why do we say don't forget? Is it because we really don't? We think people can't remember?

Mark Clement: 10:32

Or do we say don't forget because we heard another communicator say it? So then I need to add that and say it that way, right, and so I do that with everything and it is the most annoying thing and I know it is, and I annoying thing and I know it is, and I even told, like I was talking to, uh, pastor clay, the other day we were at a meeting and I said, hey, I give you full permission please. Like I submit to your authority and but, like you know me, I talk and I try to come at every angle and I know how annoying that can be and it can really slow things down. But I'm doing it from this angle and he loves this about me because I'm trying to look at everything and, as justin's looking at me, I'm like giving the whole world a globe, kind of like, from every angle, from 2 o'clock to 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock to 3. And so when I hear statements like does that make sense?

Mark Clement: 11:15

Why do we say that? What's the deeper meaning behind it and is there a better way to communicate it? I do this with everything, and so I'm not saying it's right. I do this with everything, yeah, and so I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying it's even wrong to make those statements, because that statement has its own place. I would just say encourage you if you're a communicator not you, but just add you know general sense of when we communicate. We just need to think about the things we say and how does that come across?

Justin: 11:39

I'll take one. Yeah, I'll take one here for you. Yeah, what makes you and I get this? Yeah, see, I had to just do it too. What makes you say you, but then you had to let me know.

Rhett: 11:48

Now I'm not talking to you, Justin.

Justin: 11:50

Exactly, I mean it's clear.

Rhett: 11:52

Yeah, we're talking to our audience. It's the same thing.

Justin: 11:58

But you just had to clear that up with me saying now I know, you know this, I just I cleared up the clear up of your clear up.

Mark Clement: 12:04

I think maybe and that's a great question it's because you and I are in the room and we know people are listening, but I feel like it's our conversation. So when I'm saying you, it could come across as if I'm saying you know, justin, when you communicate, and I don't mean it that way, so you know it's which could almost mean, which speaks to my insecurity, or that, when you're almost being protective of my feelings?

Justin: 12:28

Yeah, because inside there might be something you're going through that would.

Mark Clement: 12:32

Way to turn this on me. I love this. Bring it on. Let's talk about this.

Justin: 12:34

Let's go deep with this.

Mark Clement: 12:35

Yes, See, exactly, I just asked if you know what I mean.

Justin: 12:40

So she had to cut it off because I needed to know that you're picking up on what I'm saying.

Mark Clement: 12:45

Because I know that all hand in there.

Justin: 12:51

Right, and they would take the pig in the hole, put an apple in its mouth.

Mark Clement: 12:56

And I know, and there's so many different versions of how that can actually come out you know in conversation anyway. So I've just been trying to do this deep dive. It's good, it's just self-awareness more than it is anything, and I've got, when I listen to these episodes back, I literally go okay, why did I say it that way?

Rhett: 13:15

Do you really Sometimes?

Mark Clement: 13:16

yeah, Because I'm like I mean, I like to hear the authenticity and what I'm actually sounding like in a conversation, yeah, and I'm like, oh, I didn't know, I sounded that's pretty goofy. You might want to straighten that one up, you know you'll have to tell me more about that one. I need to what you're saying.

Rhett: 13:37

No, it's just me though.

Justin: 13:38

You're just doing your own. I mean, I definitely. I self-assess yeah, I do so when I'm editing even though now it's like the editing is like you're getting everything in there, you really are yeah, but still, when I'm editing I'll think okay, next time maybe I'll respond this way.

Mark Clement: 13:53

Well, see, here's a prime example. It's like mm-hmm, that's good, oh yeah, okay, like great, say those things. I mean they're good. But when we're interview or having a conversation with somebody, it's you and me. So what you just did there on that microphone, right there with it, right? I've noticed that when we're in conversation, you and I are so in sync with each other. We'll do that at the same time All the time.

Justin: 14:17

All the time and we almost start laughing. Some people are listening and going.

Mark Clement: 14:21

Yeah, I picked up on that. Yeah, yeah, and I know we don't do video, but we've kind of got camera on and I'll go back and watch some of it, and you and I are like, if not we'll be looking in the mirror the same smile, the same nod, the same smile, the same adjustment, the same hand on the cheek. So I'm trying to get. I don't think that's bad.

Justin: 14:53

It's think that's bad.

Mark Clement: 14:53

It's not bad and I know, no, oh, I'm about to do it and I know you're not saying it's bad.

Justin: 14:54

See why do we do this? But I, I don't. Yeah, what? What I like to qualify everything?

Mark Clement: 14:56

yes, the qualifiers.

Justin: 14:56

I many years I've been trying to get better about qualifiers and in a true friendship, there shouldn't be the qualifications like I got you, you don't have to explain and when you're speaking to an audience, you don't always need a qualifier, but then you keep qualifying. I know Well, not you. You don't keep qualifying.

Mark Clement: 15:09

It's like a pastor preaching to a church on Sunday. I know I'm preaching to the choir because you're here this Sunday, so I'm talking about those who didn't come to church on Sunday. Right, then why are you saying it?

Justin: 15:17

Yeah, such a great. I mean why and I'll do that, I'll do that when I'm teaching something, it is important to teach. But then something in me is triggered to say now, I know I'm speaking here you are at, in this case, highlands College. I know you know this, but it's like no, I don't have to qualify it. I said it because some things need to be repeated Well, what if there's this?

Mark Clement: 15:43

And, speaking granularly, you went there, but what if there is a student in the room that didn't know it Exactly? And then all of a sudden they're like well, I guess I should have known that, I didn't know that, you know, I don't know yeah.

Justin: 15:53

Like I'm going to tell you this story. I know everybody knows the story of David in the Bible, so we'll pass this and they're thinking, no, I don't know, I would love the context.

Justin: 16:04

But I don't want to go to there because I don't want to waste people's time, but yet it really might not be wasting time. It's all a head game sometimes and there is a mix of being aware what's true awareness and then what is an insecurity that's coming up and I think that's the stuff that it's really healthy to try to combat and how we're even. You know we're kind of poking fun with each other, but it's fun.

Mark Clement: 16:27

This is really I think this is going to be a great episode. It helps me. This is iron sharpening iron right now, because I didn't go into this conversation even with the opening statement, thinking we'd get to this Right.

Justin: 16:37

But it is really cool that we're having this, then I'll call one on you. Yeah, and you and you'd be thinking for me too, because see how I had to qualify to let everybody know it's going to be fair.

Mark Clement: 16:47

Let me see the dirt.

Justin: 16:48

I can pull up on Bradshaw no you'll tell a story and I'm so tracking with you. Or you're telling a story and we've gone down a rabbit trail, rabbit on. That's good, because it's the only way we can do an episode every week we need. I love our rabbit holes. We take because we go there and we make new conversation and we make our way back. Most of the time sometimes we don't, but you'll be telling a story and I noticed that you'll say now I don't even know what God is here. But so you'll justify why you're saying it. And I'm listening to you thinking you don't even have to say that because I'm so into what you're saying. By you saying that makes me, it almost throws me off, but I'm always looking at it like but maybe he's saying that to clear that up with the audience somewhere and I think that, yeah, thank you for bringing that to it, but it's like it discredits what you just said and I'm listening to it like don't discredit that.

Mark Clement: 17:41

I'm not doing it, thinking that I'm discrediting where we are, but I am thinking through the lens of those who might be joining us for the first time, thinking, god, these guys are all over the map. Weren't you talking about the peanut butter at?

Justin: 17:54

the beginning and now you're talking about. You're talking about Justin's arm. When are you going to say how he hurt his arm? I know Right.

Mark Clement: 18:00

So it's like we're not forgetting about that. So I think that I think that thank you for bringing that up, because I do. I don't know if it's insecurity. I don't think it is. I'm, I'm honestly speaking. I guys, there are some people listening, we haven't forgot about you and we're taking you on this journey and it's just a part of our conversation. But you're right, it's unnecessary. I don't need to say it. I can think it, I don't need to say it and then nothing wrong with saying it. But, like I don't have to qualify that every time, we can let the conversation be and I can make a mental note to try to remember how to get us back to what we were talking about earlier without having to say that it might be great what you're saying, but for some reason I receive it, as you don't have to say that.

Justin: 18:39

So is it my? Is it my experiences, is it my triggers that make me think that was unnecessary? But what if there's an audience out there listening? Yeah, I'm so glad he cleared that up. But in my mind I'm thinking people are listening like, ok, now you made me aware that. Yeah you're going somewhere.

Mark Clement: 18:58

I made you aware Now you've made us aware that I don't know how we got here, my mind is blown right about now, Like the circuits are fried, for how deep this is going, the why behind the why behind the why in the deep rootedness of like, why do we say what we say? How do we say what we say? Why do we qualify things? Why do you think we have to? Here's the question why do you think? Because I know, naturally, and you've worked through this and you'll even say this, not maybe not so much on the episodes, but, and maybe you've done it a few times, I don't, I don't remember like you do, but it's this. I know I don't need to qualify this you know.

Justin: 19:38

But what is it about trying to qualify something with a friend or a conversation? Where does that come from? Yeah, I don't know it's. It's almost like if I'm talking to summer and I'm sharing something, something that I used to do a lot and I've gotten better at now. Yeah, but I would say a statement that was very factual and I would go you know, and then I keep talking you, or I'm talking to somebody else and I'm trying to tell them something that I'm feeling like you know, this is something I feel about this. You know, it is really at the heart of it. It can either be a go-to word, which sometimes it is, or sometimes it's an insecurity where I'm telling you like I know what I'm talking about, but I need you to know. When I say you know, I'm trying to prod you to give me an agreement.

Mark Clement: 20:20

It's like a pastor going come on, somebody, don't leave me alone up here, you guys with me. You know kind of leaning out. Putting their hands together and like physically reaching out to say I need to know that you're tracking with me, so I know that what I'm communicating is connecting before I go any further.

Justin: 20:35

That's right, because if I and yeah, I think- and then you got dive deep there and say so, are you doing that as a shepherd heart or are you doing it as a performance, like it's I gotta? I'm not taking this the way I need to. I need to know that they're buying in. So one is the shepherd making sure you're coming with me yeah or one is the performer who's hoping that people are buying in.

Justin: 20:56

So the only way I'm going to know is to actually say and can I get an amen? Sometimes the amen's natural, but sometimes it's a go-to word. I need somebody to. I just said something hard. The room was silent. And you know what? The room was probably silent because you just said something hard. And now they need to chew on it and just sit there and you're prodding them and say I need a better amen than that.

Justin: 21:20

Yeah, and they're like amen. So now you forced us to say amen, you got us out of our thought pattern. That was the greatness. You just said so through your insecurity, potentially yeah, Through your insecurity you just threw us off of the great moment you made.

Mark Clement: 21:36

Hey, friends, Red here Just want to take Security. You just threw us off of the great moment you made. However, you want to get it out there, man. Just get it out there. It means so much to us. Thank you for those who have done it and thank you for those who are doing it for the first time today. God bless you. Thank you. Now let's get back to the conversation.

Justin: 22:05

Do your insecurity. You just do us off of the great moment you made, because you needed to hear some words of affirmation for you and it really was self-serving. It wasn't serving me.

Rhett: 22:16

Yeah.

Mark Clement: 22:17

Boom.

Justin: 22:22

That's really good, and I mean seriously, I've done it.

Mark Clement: 22:24

I'm chewing on it. I've been the guy who's done that. When you're talking about communication anytime, listen, you know you get really good at things by studying things. They don't happen just by happenstance or chance, it's repetition, but it's actually studying, it's observing and being very aware. So when I got into communication, it wasn't because I felt like I want to get into communication, it was just a part of like I feel like this is just being obedient to what God's put on my heart in this next season of life, which communicating, preaching the gospel, teaching, whatever, and so having not had a lot of reps on that outside of like leading a worship team and having small group type settings, it's another animal because there's so much there. So what I've learned was I want to just go learn from the best. So I was like all right, if these are the top five in America, let me just stop start there, you know, and just start watching and leaning into.

Mark Clement: 23:14

And for me, learning is writing. I have to write it down. So I would start transcripting a lot of these guys and what I noticed is a pattern, and I'm a pattern guy. That's how I learn music. Some people are like how do you know where to put your fingers on that piano? I'm like it's all patterns to me, all patterns, every bit of it. I know the chord and I know the chord and I know what an AC sharp E is like that's a major chord in a right, you know and so. Or a GBD, like that's a Jeep. But like when I my hands are on the keyboard, I just know where I can play and where I'm not supposed to play. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Mark Clement: 23:48

It's the same thing with, with, with communication, and good great communicators have the way they get into their thought, have the way they transition to the next thought, and so there's these great communicators. Yes, and when you start studying that and you start looking at that and you start writing those things down, just like a tool in the tool belt of being able to say, hey, my hope today is that I'm communicating in this way, that you're following along and this is connecting with you, does that make sense? Right? There's so many different ways you can say that without saying the same thing over and over again. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. And so, as I started studying, I started realizing that, wow, like there are, there are ways that you can say man, I hope you're getting. I mean, I hope you're getting this today. I'll amen myself If you don't amen me. There are those moments that are on purpose.

Justin: 24:38

Yeah, because it's humor too. It creates a brief humor moment.

Mark Clement: 24:47

Exactly, and there's moments where, when things are getting really intense in a service and it's meaty, great communicators will let you sit there, but then they'll have something lighthearted to kind of bring you out of that, so you're not feeling like you're there the whole time. Yeah, and so if you're just attending and we're, you know the world that we live in is church. You go to a play, you go to a musical, like it's all on purpose, it's this journey they're taking you on, like it's not happenstance. Half the time is what I'm trying to say, and but in doing that, in learning that craft, you have to be careful though, because you can get in the routine of now. I know what I need to say because of how I'm feeling, and I need to bring these people along, make it seem like I'm doing it for them, but I'm really doing it for myself. Yeah, that was a long way to get there.

Justin: 25:28

Well, it was, but that's what I it wasn't a long way to get there. That makes sense.

Mark Clement: 25:39

It wasn't a long way to get there. I was tracking with you, exactly, and so. But yeah, there you go.

Justin: 25:41

Like use that example. You were talking about just being on stage and handling different moments. I'll think of one of the things Pastor Chris has done. Great is he'll and this takes a lot of of it's confidence and not taking yourself too serious. Yeah, because he can tell a joke and usually it's really really funny. But every now and again he'll tell one and no one laughs. Yeah, and that happens to people all the time. And what he does he doesn't like shame the crowd on it. He'll put it on himself and he'll. He'll make like almost like he's drawing on a board and it's just the air. He'll say, all right, um, he'll go to his himself and he'll. He'll make like almost like he's drawing on a board and it's just the air. He'll say, all right, he'll go to his pretend notes. Okay, I'm not going to be telling that one in the nine 45 service.

Justin: 26:22

Almost like that was not a good joke, instead of saying y'all ain't listening Cause that that was awesome.

Mark Clement: 26:28

That was funny stuff. That's good. I knew Pastor Chris has been one of those pastors right at the top of the list of communicators. He's made himself a student of communication, oh yeah, and what's amazing is if you'll go to some of the people he learned from, you're like, oh, I see where he got some of this and it's all good and it's all to honor the Lord and to bring people along this journey, to introduce people to Jesus.

Justin: 26:50

It's the tree that we come from. It's like you're going to hear from me, I'll notice it, I'll listen to our podcast at times and there's comebacks that I'll say, yeah, and I'm like that is, I'm so, pastor Chris, I've been with him 24 years. Yeah, so you can't help it, because that's the tree I've come from and that's where I've learned. Or there's different people. I remember you studying a lot of that when you were church planning, and I remember you studying a lot of that when you were church planning and you would hear PC, but you would study Craig Rochelle, because you would bring things out that I didn't know with someone like Craig, because you were literally mapping out an entire service and you'd be saying, hey, let me tell you something that I noticed Craig does on every message, and you would show me because you wrote it out. So you created the map. Or, I'm sorry, you learn the map, yeah, and then now, every time or I don't want to say every time, because I know he evolves too- Well, yeah, but in that season.

Justin: 27:45

I would listen and I'm like wow, that one sentence.

Rhett: 27:47

Yeah, well, at the very beginning of it.

Mark Clement: 27:49

That one sentence is in there 30 times, yeah, at the usually have a sentence which is his main point, and then he'll declare that. And then about five minutes in there he'll say and what we know is and there's a statement. And then another 10 minutes in and what we know is, bam, there's a statement again. It's the same sentence.

Justin: 28:06

And by the end everybody's like boom.

Mark Clement: 28:09

And because what he's learned is that not everybody's going to remember everything. So why don't I just focus on the one? What's the main point?

Justin: 28:16

What's the main point? They left here Exactly, and that was it.

Mark Clement: 28:19

And that's it. And there's something about reputation and getting people involved in it and asking them to say it out loud, and so that's just in. You know, one way is not the right way, it's just a way right Different models that people use. And so, having studied PC and then having studied Patrick Craig Rochelle, and then in just looking, and then even other, you know people that are doing a great job that nobody's really aware of, like there's just, we're all learning from each other, you know, in this, space this is discipleship.

Mark Clement: 28:47

Some people are like, well, you're just copying. No, well, you kind of are. I mean like we pass down who we are. Yeah, Jesus was, you know his followers, right, Like they were disciples, which means they are a disciple of.

Justin: 28:58

Christ. It's like not just copy, it's not really look at it Like you're just it's imitation, it's imitation. Imitate me as I imitate Christ.

Mark Clement: 29:05

Exactly, that's discipleship. It's like I don't have a degree in the Bible. From what I've learned and what I've studied is that people didn't necessarily have a degree in like, say this theology or whatever. It's like necessarily have a degree in say this theology or whatever it's like. I have a degree in this guy, I have a degree in this guy, my degree and my follower, my teacher, my rabbi.

Mark Clement: 29:25

I have a degree in this rabbi, which my degree is in Jesus. That was before he died and rose again. These guys are like this is the guy that I follow, Miracle worker, and so for us we have to have people, and I think we overestimate this idea that discipleship is like oh man, I've got to spend every waking moment with you, you know no, but discipleship is like, hey, just follow me as I follow Christ man, I'm going to get some things right and I'm going to get some things wrong.

Mark Clement: 29:51

But when I get it wrong, watch how I make it right. Watch how I hit my knees and not only ask God for forgiveness but ask you if I've hurt you.

Justin: 29:59

Yeah, you're modeling.

Mark Clement: 30:00

Or look how the hell I've gone through and how I've forgiven other people that have hurt me and wounded me, and whether or not they forgive me or not, it doesn't matter, but watch how I do that. Follow me as I follow Christ.

Justin: 30:11

Going back to Dallas. It's the person who is observing him, thinking and realizing. He never asked how he did Like he was there so, on point, to deliver a message. He felt like I accomplished my mission.

Rhett: 30:27

Yeah.

Justin: 30:27

And if you want to say something to him, he'll also have a humility to receive, and so if you feel like you have to have, it is easier. It's so much easier when someone comes to me and says, hey, do you have any feedback for me? And we teach people ask questions to get feedback.

Mark Clement: 30:43

I think it's great. You want to have the heart to be teachable.

Justin: 30:46

You want to know that they're being teachable. But then also there's the flip side of just because someone's not asking doesn't mean they're not open. They just might not be prone to ask, like Dallas Willard didn't ask, but I know for a fact getting to see the people that really learned from him, came up under him, reading a lot of his books and understanding he would have had the humility to listen If you would have said you know, next time you might want to stand on this side. He would have been like well, I think that's a great idea. Yeah, okay, and it's like billy graham. I had the privilege of seeing him on one of his last crusades in louisville, kentucky, at papa john's stadium. Wow me, and summer went there and what year was that this?

Justin: 31:28

would have been like 2000, 2001. Okay, you had to have been I think we were in dallas.

Mark Clement: 31:35

I went to see him at the old Irving Stadium, Cowboys Stadium. That was the original. We didn't get there early enough to get inside. We were outside in the parking lot watching it on a screen Dang, that's big.

Justin: 31:45

And that was his last, I know on this one like DC Talk, Kirk Franklin.

Mark Clement: 31:49

They were all there. They were there.

Justin: 31:50

And so. But he's in the we're somehow like we're down by the field and so like he's on his message and he is like on the main part, like let focus be happening right now because he is about to deliver and as he is wrapping up, you see a bunch of these people filing out who are going to be praying for people, but they're completely interrupting them.

Justin: 32:17

Like you can see it, you know, with our eyes. I'm over here thinking, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, this is he's preaching. And he just stops mid-sentence. And you know, this is Billy Graham. My attempt at his voice.

Justin: 32:32

He's like well, I noticed that all these people are coming down right now and I'm like he's about to call them out, like someone sent him out too soon and I'll never huge leadership lesson I learned on that night. I've never forgot it. And he says, right as I'm on the end of my message, you know what? What a great idea, because now, by the time I do the altar call, you guys are going to be in position to help people with prayer, prayer, prayer. It's good. And I'm listening to him thinking, oh my gosh, Every leader up to that point that I know, at that point, would have called that person out. And it's probably the past that we came through and we saw a lot of hotheads leading. I'm like the hotheads would have called that brother out or those people out and said I'm in the middle of my message, now, what do you think you're doing? And he had a way to put such grace on it, and it actually locked people back into what he was saying. How about that?

Mark Clement: 33:31

What was in his heart, the fruit that was there came out, came out that you know I'm not going to give a lot of attention to this guy, but there's a meme out there where the pastor who had a piano guy come up behind him yeah, he starts playing behind him in, the pastor roasts him and the whole place is laughing and but he is like, literally like could you play, like could you play something that doesn't?

Mark Clement: 33:51

feel like I'm at a funeral right now. I mean it could be a little bit more upbeat. I was like this this is not a pastor.

Justin: 33:57

Yeah.

Mark Clement: 33:58

This is a slave driver Like this guy. This, this is a. This is not a pastor's heart, this is to serve a moment like this. Oh, it got under my skin, man. And so when I hear that story of Billy Graham, it's like man, the fruit of a pastor and evangelist and somebody who's like you know what. That's a great idea. Come on down Like all right, y'all settled, like you know, because he just kind of flipped it, but he also brought attention to it in a way like oh, okay, yeah.

Mark Clement: 34:23

Yeah man, but he and made the most of it to bring everybody back in, and that's what great people do and I think, discipleship, talking about learning, and some people are like, well, you're just copying it. Well, yeah, I am, I'm imitating people, but I'm not losing myself in it and there might be some times where let me speak to young communicators for a minute you're going to say things that other people are saying and it's's truth, and because you haven't found your identity or your voice and I don't, and I it's like speaking to an artist. You know singers that come up. It's like you'll hear them, like on american idol or whatever. Like man, you got a great voice, but you don't know your voice yet because you're trying to sound like everybody else. Yeah, I don't need you to sound like abc singer, I need you to sound like who you are. Find that and then come back because you've got the ability, but I'm not hearing a genuineness, authenticness.

Justin: 35:15

There's something in their depths that they're not being who they really are Exactly.

Mark Clement: 35:20

And so you can be who you are and make the same statements or the same truth, but say it how you would say it, and that takes time, that's right.

Mark Clement: 35:29

And so I would say, if you go back and listen to any of my messages when I preached back when we first started, you would, you would notice a huge difference from then to now, because I didn't. I didn't have a voice, I didn't have my rhythms, I didn't have a voice, I didn't know. So I was duplicating truth in ways that I've heard other people say it and I was trying to say it the way they were saying it. But then over time I've gotten more confident to realize, wow, I can say that same truth, but I could say it like Rhett would say it. Yeah, and I know how Rhett would say it. Yeah, I know how Rhett, sitting in his chair, would sit down and tell Justin hey, man for God so loved the world that he gave his only, you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

Mark Clement: 36:12

Hallelujah, are y'all feeling me today? Do you talk like that in real life? Let me just talk to communicators. Don't talk on a platform. Please talk about losing credibility If we're sitting down over coffee and you're talking to me like, hey man, john, 3.16, it was really cool man For God, so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Talk to talk to me that way and you get up on the platform like, hallelujah, john, 316 for god. So, my brother, you are the whitest guy on the planet. This is who. When we were who. Who are you? Yeah, do you know? Like that's a pet peeve of mom, and if you can't tell, I'll start standing on my soapbox here because like be who you are, because they haven't.

Mark Clement: 36:48

Yeah, you're not tdj.

Justin: 36:49

they haven't learned completely. They're still in this journey of trying to. Maybe they've conquered other things, but their identity is still having to get really, really formed. And you can even think back to when you've walked in those seasons of man, my identity it all comes back down to. We're not going to be perfected right away, but it is finding our identity in Christ and knowing you are exactly the way he created you. Now you want to make sure that you develop it, of course. And the rich? I mean not rich young ruler, but the parable of the master, giving the different people the talents.

Justin: 37:23

Five talents, the three talents, the one talent. There are people on different levels, but he never asked you to compare to others. He just said take what I give you and multiply that, and so it really is your identity, what you are. There's no one who's going to be I've heard it said you're not one in a million. There is no other like you Exactly, and so you're that valuable. So, if we can lock into our identity, there's nothing that we won't be able to grow to, steward of what God had gave us for our capacity. I keep this on my phone as we wrap up, rhett, because it really goes. What we're talking about.

Justin: 37:58

We have, as people who have regularly listened, they know that you and I are very closely. We attend Church of the Highlands. We are a part of Highlands College, your wife works there, I get to be an instructor there, do course development and I teach classes there as well, and we'll have in these certain instructors or practitioners who are in the different parts of really, and so, for example, like music for our worship major, we'll have Chris Tomlin, cc Winans come in, some people, louis Giglio, who's very much like a he's almost like an innovator, like he's so full of innovation. We'll have different people come in and we'll call them that in residence. So, for example, we had Chris Tomlin come in one time. I knew you remember this. We were there together and it was like he's the, he was the the artist in residence.

Justin: 38:50

But he's just to say this quick. I'm not gonna give his whole message, but it was literally. He is part of Highlands College throughout the year at different times, but I keep this on my phone because I remember going through a season where I was almost like I was starting to maybe I'm going out to lead somewhere and I wanna do a good job and something locked in where, like the example you just gave of American Idol, I'm wanting to do so good. I'm forgetting the mission that I'm on to go do good. And I remember coming across these notes I took and now I created my own little screensaver.

Justin: 39:26

So this is just kind of we weren't planning this but as we're going in this direction. I remember Chris Tomlin taught the Highlands College students about this and it's kind of opposites. The first thing he says is when he's leading worship and of course he's instructing us, or imagine, whatever you're doing, your job, whatever it is, but in his case he's leading worship he says you can either come across from the heart of performance or presence, and I think that's so key because if you know like I was trapped in at one time when you're in performance you are not being who you are.

Mark Clement: 40:01

You're qualifying everything. So here, yeah, you're qualifying everything. And then one of the here's a great example, like when you know Hillsong was huge in the nineties and the early 2000s and everything had the Aussie accent, yeah, and so a prime example is you got a Southern boy from Alabama like me up there going, you know, like delirious. You know, yeah, you know you don't sing. Is it true today? You go. Is it true today that when people pray, you know it's true, yeah, and I believe are y'all doing good tonight for you.

Mark Clement: 40:37

Come on south alabama, let's go, and I'm like, and I'm being extreme, yeah but that's sometimes.

Justin: 40:43

You're actually not it.

Mark Clement: 40:44

It happens, but that's pretty much you putting on a performance you know, I mean it's okay to find your artistry in it, but come on, man, you're not an Aussie.

Justin: 40:52

Yeah, but it's like recognizing, it's like go up there and be who you are in presence. You're operating in your presence in that moment and you can fully lock in who you are and let God do the work, but you are stewarding what you have. The second thing he says you can come from position or you can operate from your posture.

Justin: 41:12

That's so good and so position is where you're living. For this mindset of I want to hit this rung on the ladder, but when you do, from posture it's like you're posturing yourself and almost like posturing yourself. In this humility of God, I want to be a vessel, I want to be postured in this way.

Mark Clement: 41:31

When one way that I apply that and this is truth is hey guys, I'm just your friend today, you know it's this idea of my hope today is that I steward God's word in a way that serves you and me together, that we're learning and we're on this journey together. So I might be standing five feet above you on a platform, but I want you to know that my heart is right there with you, in a servant's position, to receive the same word that I'm preaching to myself, like it's this, like we're in this together. That's that's how I see the application of my life as a communicator.

Justin: 41:59

Yeah, man Love that. And the third one he says is you can either be a laser or a lighthouse. I love that. And he talks about a laser is like you're just coming in, like here's what we doing. This is going to be what's going to happen. I don't care what's about to change in the service or the job, whatever your world is, we're going to do it this way. It's my way. The highway or a lighthouse exists to throw light all over, like you're trying to give a constant sweep of leading, finding where people are and leading them to shore To me.

Mark Clement: 42:29

I like that idea of leading from the back to the front. The people that are in the front are always going to be pretty much fully engaged because they're in the front. They're there on a reason.

Rhett: 42:36

They maybe got there early, they're down front.

Mark Clement: 42:39

People in the back are the ones you're like hey man, I'm looking out, I see you, I want to reach you too. Man, you know, come on this journey. It's such a different, it's a broader stroke of just serving people. That's right. I love this. I was there when he preached this. It was just so good it was. Thank you for the reminder and it's just very basic.

Justin: 42:56

It is the best things in life are some of the most simple, simplistic mindset. And you look at this, I draw from this Every day. I look at this to remind myself, Justin, your identity is in Christ. To remind myself, Justin, your identity is in Christ. Operate from who you are. You're going to miss the mission he's called you to. There's some amazing things out there, and so he puts this other one. You can operate from style or you can operate from spirit. So is it all about the style of you've already got a plan coming in, here's what it's going to be like, or do you come from the spirit of it where, once again, like the lighthouse, you're trying to take note of what's the opportunity that you've been given and what's the heart to actually try to reach, whatever it is, in this case, people.

Mark Clement: 43:44

It's that spirit.

Justin: 43:45

The spirit is like this is about the mission of leading people to God's presence and if my style, I'm going to have style, yeah, but if my style doesn't serve the mission, I'm going to actually make sure that it doesn't happen that way, because it's spirit to spirit. If I need to stop what I'm doing over here and sing this hymn because you can feel in the room like there is a unified spirit of everybody with this, I'm going to back down from the agenda of the lighthouse earlier or the laser in the same way. My style is important, but the spirit is over style.

Mark Clement: 44:22

Know your audience. Paul knew. Paul says I'll become anything that I need to become to proclaim the good news of Jesus so that people would come to know him. So I will do everything I can A Jew, a Gentile, whatever Greek like I'm going to get in and I'm going to get to know them for where they are, so that I'm communicating to them in a way that they grasp, they understand, they go on the journey with me.

Mark Clement: 44:43

And I think that's important to know your audience, know the people you're speaking to, communicating with. That's why for me it's hard to go into youth scenarios, because I feel old and outdated, as if I can't speak the language that they speak. And I know they don't need the language, they need the heart, but I have just some insecurity out there. I do these things but it's just important to know, like, okay, if I'm preaching to a bunch of 70-year-olds or 20-year-olds, the content and the heart needs to be there, but I need to understand that demographic of who I'm reaching, of how I need to communicate the same message, the same heart, with the same why, but it does need to be communicated differently.

Justin: 45:21

Yeah, it does. There's a style there, but at the heart of it, that spirit, there's people who they might not have been cool to me at all with their style, but I knew they were real.

Justin: 45:32

And it's like their words meant so much to me, which reminds our audience you are relevant if you come from the spirit of things. Style is important. We want to lock in and know our audience. But way above style is spirit. Has to be the root of it. Yeah, it's the heart of why you're doing it. Yeah, it's huge.

Justin: 45:49

And then the last one is you either are coming for acceptance or a place from acceptance. And so if I'm performing right, I'm wanting to be loved, I want, I want to do a good job on this, because I need your acceptance. After I speak, I'm asking all the time, even if it's in the most sneaky way, it's like hey, so you think that went all right. You know, whatever I want to do to get you to say, yeah, man, they loved it, great job, man, you really think, oh, it was awesome. So if I'm in that mindset that now I'm accepted oh, okay, good, I got my acceptance I'm not coming in from a place of I'm enough in Christ. And so when you come from that place from acceptance, that means by the time I ever hit a room or I'm even in a room, I'm already coming from a heart, I'm already accepted. I've got nothing to prove my heart's on mission. I want to steward whatever moment God's given me, but not to get acceptance because I've already been accepted, that's so good.

Mark Clement: 46:47

And if 100% of everybody was honest that's communicated had been on a platform.

Mark Clement: 46:53

If they were honest, they would say I've absolutely led from the place of needing acceptance rather than already being accepted Many, many times Another way to say, that is, am I leading from a place of serving or being served? Because there is a big difference when you're communicating with a heart of man. I'm here to serve others rather than I'm here to serve others, but I'm really here to kind of serve myself. Yeah, you can sense it goes back to the heart of everything too. And the great leaders, the great communicators, great worship leaders, great, anything that you do with purpose, with that mindset, it's serving people, it's loving God. That's my why, yeah, and then my what is loving others the way God loves me. It's super simple, it is, and if we'll filter it through the simplicity and through those lenses every time, man, it's amazing how much more connected we'll be with people that we're leading and communicating to.

Justin: 47:41

Well, and there's a reason why it's on my phone, Rhett it's because I have to remind myself every day.

Mark Clement: 47:48

Yeah, that's good.

Justin: 47:49

I constantly look at that because I am prone to wonder, me too, w-a-n-d-e-r. I am prone to wonder, and before I teach, before I lead worship, whatever- it is, I might do. I have to look at that because I will fall naturally into a performance mindset and I have to discipline as a disciple. Like you said, I am constantly disciplining myself and those are great reminders and it's really been such a such a. I mean, that is precious to me having it on my phone. Well, such simple stuff.

Mark Clement: 48:24

Well, thank you for your vulnerability and going there, cause that that's the one thing that's missing, I think, in a lot of conversations and leadership talks these days is this type of authenticity to go. Look, we never arrived, we never will. We're human, we're human beings. We're not infallible, like we were prone to error, in fact, we prone to wander, yeah Right. And so for you, to be honest, to say I could keep this in front of me because I need this.

Mark Clement: 48:50

Well, I need that too, oh yeah. And like it just reminds me of every time I get up before you know, not up in the morning, but before I go and speak or communicate or sing, or whatever it might be, I always have to, like, intentionally, posture my heart there. So good, back to that, and great reminder, maybe not just for you, but for me and for anybody listening um man, just a great way to live your life. This is armchair, authentic man, this is authentic conversations, and I think this is what makes our friendship, and then our friends that are along this journey with us, I think, is what makes us so special coming up on the next episode of armchair authentic.

Rhett: 49:27

I think there's something about scars that are beautiful. You know, people oftentimes with physical scars they'll be embarrassed about them or they don't want to show or whatever. But the scar, if you look at it, it's all about how you look at it. It's a sign of healing. It doesn't come until it's healed so like. It may not be the prettiest thing in the world just to look at or talk about, but it actually is a beautiful thing that represents something that you've overcome. And the devil doesn't want us to tell our stories. That's why you put shame around it. It's embarrassment around it. That's your evidence of what's happened in your life. I think when we tell those stories, show our scars, get vulnerable about it. Every time people share stuff or confess something they're struggling with or tell a backstory or whatever, inevitably somebody goes oh, me too.

Justin: 50:13

We're really looking forward to that episode. You know, a highlight for us is when we get to engage with you. That's why our socials are there. Reach out to us on Facebook and Instagram, at Armchair Authentic, or on X at Armchair Auth Pod. That's Armchair Auth A-U-T-H-P-O-D. We're really looking forward to bringing you these episodes. Each week, we have some great guests in store and, of course, me and Rhett are going to be bringing you some authentic conversations. If you're enjoying these episodes, would you do us a favor, would you copy the link and text it to a friend? We'd love to have them join us on this journey. Hey, we look forward to talking to you again next week on Armchair Authentic, but until then, we'll see you soon, thank you.